Anna
Online
Parenting specialist DoppleMe

Hi there, has anyone seen our Facebook page and the discussion happening about Letting children decide who they spend their time with?

What do you think about it?

 

Posted on: June 18, 2014 - 3:56pm
Skyflower
DoppleMe

I am so pleased they are starting to recognise what is happening in Court and with Cafcass but have you seen the response to the article ? 

Children should be safe, that is one of their fundamental rights and I believe that if they are scared to visit it should be properly investigated and they should be helped with it, not just forced to visit. 

Posted on: June 20, 2014 - 7:35am

Skyflower
DoppleMe

my children's father would have messed terribly with their heads and it would never have been safe to visit him, as he was doing horrible things to them. It would have made them very dysfunctional for the rest of their lives. 

Posted on: June 20, 2014 - 7:42pm

Anna
Online
Parenting specialist DoppleMe

Hi Skyflower

We did see the responses to the article, but we see on a day to day basis, the other side, the distress that children face on a weekly or fortnightly basis. 

So here at Single Parent Action Network, we are thinking of campaiging for the children's right to be free of fear when it comes to Courts giving access to abusive parents.

I hope that you will get involved, once we are up and running.Smile No doubt we will face a huge backlash and criticism, but someone has to fight for change.

Posted on: June 20, 2014 - 11:00am

Skyflower
DoppleMe

I will Anna and I have also contacted mothers4justice and left my name so I maybe can help others in  what the next step in Court will be, how to prepare,  and what to look out for or who to contact for help. 

This is so very very needed to help our children. Lets make the world a better place, all of us...

Posted on: June 21, 2014 - 8:17am

Skyflower
DoppleMe

Is there no one who would like to comment ? 

Posted on: June 21, 2014 - 11:57pm

Louise
Parenting specialist DoppleMe

Hi Skyflower, I deliberately had not commented on the article as I had mixed feelings.

On one hand I support you and others on this board 100% and think it is a complete disgrace that children of abusive parents are often still ordered to have contact with the violent/abusive person, much to their distress and that no safeguards are put in for the abused adult. This is indeed a worthy and important campaign and the protection of children, as well as adults, should be top priority.

On the other hand, my many years of working with separated families have shown me that there are many different situations and making a sweeping statement such as that quoted in the article about young children not benefiting from overnight contact, is not helpful. There are many excellent dads whose involvment is a massive benefit to little ones. And what when the boot is on the other foot, when the children live with dad (maybe much to the sorrow of mum) is mum to be denied overnight contact on this basis? We have had mums on here who are in just that situation.

I think CAFCASS need much clearer guidelines. Their job must be a nightmare. After all by their very nature, abusive people can also be very charming and persuasive. Why else did we accept them as partners in the first place? I have personal experience of a mum making false allegations of abuse against a dad to try and prevent contact. There has also been a lot of press lately about parental alienation, ie the parent with residence brainwashing the child against the other parent so CAFCASS are trying to avoid colluding with any suggestion of that.

Clearer guidelines would enable them to make clearer decisions, however, and that's the bottom line...to cut through what can be continued abuse, if not of the children, of the adult via the children.

That's my personal view, for what it's worth, and I am glad this is something we can campaign on!

 

Posted on: June 22, 2014 - 7:01am

Skyflower
DoppleMe

Hi Louise, I see what you mean, as I had read only the first article : why we need  a single mothers pressure group and not what Penelope Leach wrote. I have now clicked on "wrote recently" and found it. It does only speak of children not seperating from their mother, assuming the mother has full residency.

I know we have mothers without full custody on here and under Penelope Leach this is simply not mentioned as she believes children of the age four and under should not be seperated from their mother to stay the night with their father. So in her book mothers should always have full custody the first 4 years ? 

It is all becoming very complicated and it makes it so that each case has to be judged seperately. Have you read her book Louise? 

When Cafcass is involved it is always with abusive families?  Does that mean that normal families who do not need Court can still just arrange it themselves?

 

 

Posted on: June 22, 2014 - 10:04am

Louise
Parenting specialist DoppleMe

Some parents arrange contact schedules themselves, yes. And some parents where there is no abuse involved still use the courts and/or mediation, just because they cannot agree. I have never needed to use the court for contact issues (there have been plenty about money though!)as I have always been happy for the boys to see their dad and as they have got older then they have arranged it themselves. However, he had a good relationship with them and the abuse I had suffered was such that I was able to recover and move forward.

I was a big fan of Penelope Leach when my boys were little and used her book "Baby and Child" a great deal. It seems to be true that very young children fare well with one main caregiver, but that does not mean that they can never be, or stay, with anyone else.

In your case, Skyflower, your children are older and the difficulties you have had included their views seeming to be ignored by the authorities, and the question of parental alienation (as in my last post) being alleged. I am so pleased that you finally got justice for you and the children, and One Space will continue to campaign for children to stay safe.

Posted on: June 22, 2014 - 2:36pm

Skyflower
DoppleMe

Thank you so much for sharing this Louise and thank you for your always support xx

Posted on: June 22, 2014 - 6:19pm

sparklinglime
DoppleMe

I was lucky in that I never went through the Court system - although I would have if it was possible to make the non-resident parent play a bigger part in their child/rens lives.

I have had no experience of this to contribute.  As Louise says, abusive people can be so charming.  I know that people think The Git is lovely, yet I know different.  I have done all I can for my lot, so they still love him.  He usually gets around to seeing them twice a year.  I find that in itself abusive...

So I'm sorry I've not contributed here.

Posted on: June 23, 2014 - 7:25am

sergiozed
Online
Parenting specialist DoppleMe

Let me barge into this one, as it was my choice to pick up the story of ‘Mothers4Justice’, which went out first on the Guardian and then the statesman.

Louise is, as ever, the voice of reason here, and it is particularly wrong to just lump all dad or all mums into the same category. The issue in my view, and where I agree with Penelope Leach, is that we need ‘Justice4children’. As far as I see it, the key point here is not over the sleepovers, or even CAFCASS. It is about the issue of Rights. And where I agree with Leach is in the fact that the rights of the child must always be more important than the right of the parent. I think that much of the debate, as seen from the point of view of both Father4Justice and many other parenting organizations, is that parents have rights to access their child, It all sounds to me as if the child is being seen as a property, to be argued over in much the same way as the CD collection. I would like to see this argument switch to parental responsibility instead. Do parents have rights over their children, just like they do over who gets the family car? Children have rights, thought not the power to claim them. But parental rights? I have yet to see a declaration of the Rights of the Parent by the UN? The only Right given to parents by the Declaration of Human rights is the right to chose their children’s education.

Louise is right. CAFCASS needs better guidance, and there should be a much more child centrered approach, instead of the political bias against mums we are seeing from recent media stories and from what people are telling us on the forum.  

 

Posted on: June 23, 2014 - 8:56am

Skyflower
DoppleMe

The problem here is Sergiosed, that if a judge is biased, he then overrules and instructs  Cafcass, under the umbrella of the children's best interest...

After all, even though children are seen by Cafcass before a Fact and Find hearing, (mine were actually seen by Cafcass for the first time, 9 months after I left the matrimonial home, at age 11 and 8), the report of the Cafcass officer will not come out before the fact and Find Hearing so will not be counted in the Fact and Find Hearing. Which to me is already wrong. 

In my case the section 7 report of the Cafcass officer said the children were abused. The judge ruled then that the Cafcass Officer did not take into consideration what he had ruled, that she had ignored that he found the children were not abused. Although my son had wanted to take the stand the judge said that would be not in the best interest of him. A judge has too much power under the secrecy of Family Court, as you are never to discuss your case as this is contempt of court and you can be jailed for it. Again so to speak in the best interest of the child  as it is to maintain the privacy for the child. (For his own power)

In my case the judge then fired the Cafcass Officer who wrote the section 7 report that the children were abused, and chose a GAL (guardian at lithem-Cafcass) for the children. The guardian then used the children's solicitor and children's barrister and followed the judgment of the judge, in my case started with all sorts of allegations, including mental illness, factitious illness towards the children and parental alienation. (to make it look like the fact the children did not want to see their father was all my doing).

At that moment, the judge is against you, your ex with solicitor and barrister is against you and the children's solicitor and barrister is against you. No more room for a fair outcome. And your own solicitor and barrister are blocked in. 

So really where to start from my perspective, is that judges should not be able to have this power. Yes it is about the rights for the children, not the parents, but how to obtain it ?

 

 

 

Posted on: June 23, 2014 - 3:09pm

Sally W
Parenting specialist DoppleMe

I am not sure how you would go about obtaining that skyflower, i suppose we should not tar all judges with the same brush, i have come across some good ones. 

I can totally understand you feeling powerless in that situation and sadly i have met other women that have been in similair situations to yourself too, hopefully campaigning will highlight some of these issues and a better way forward can be found Smile

Posted on: June 23, 2014 - 5:43pm

sergiozed
Online
Parenting specialist DoppleMe

Hi Skyflower,

thanks for this, you make some good point here: the judges have too much power as they decide without consultation, the process itself is pointless as the CAFCASS report is not taken into account by the judge and you feel that the entire process is stacked against you.

As Sally said, there are some good judges, but I think it is the process that is not working, and that is where we should carry on making our voice heard. We are not alone either, there is quite a big debate building up on this issues, both on the question of what is fair to the child (is a judge really the best person to decide? Are judges trained psychologists? Should it not be a panel?) and on the legal problem that so many parents just can't afford a lawyer and end up representing themselves and often losing because they are not experts in court.

I think we can work with others to try to change this. If we build up the debate with voices like yours who have been at the receiving end of the system there is a chance to make a real difference? 

Posted on: June 23, 2014 - 7:03pm

Skyflower
DoppleMe

Don't attack me Sally, I do not deserve that.  I do not tar judges. I didn't think all were biased,  I said, the problem is that  "if" a judge is biased, then they are having too much power.  They should then not have such power. 

I am grateful if all of us working together, we can obtain a system that works for our children and make the world a better place.

Posted on: June 23, 2014 - 11:08pm

Sally W
Parenting specialist DoppleMe

Sorry to sound as if i was attacking you skyflower that was not my intention, i just wanted to highlight that there are good Judges too, i do agree with you about those that do throw their weight around.

sergiozed your point about the in balance of legal representation is also a very valid point, i have seen many people and those that are representing them somewhat bullied into situations by big law firms.

Posted on: June 24, 2014 - 7:13am

Skyflower
DoppleMe

Yes Sergiosed is so right about that, it shouldn't be that you can lose just because you cannot afford representation 

Posted on: June 24, 2014 - 1:54pm

Bubblegum
DoppleMe

I'm just a bit dumbfounded that someone might have the ignorant view that children should automaticaly be with the mum for the first four years of their lifes. That upsets me because my two have been with me exclusivly from ages five months and a year and a half and they have both turned out perfectly so far at nine and eleven.

I think that the courts and CAFCAS generaly do the best job they can do, my CAFCAS officer told me that no mater what, one side will always condem what ever decision is made, and hate her for it.

Posted on: June 25, 2014 - 8:07am

sergiozed
Online
Parenting specialist DoppleMe

Hi Bubblegum, I think even Penelope Leach has changed her position on this one and, on the last interview she gave (on Woman's Hour on radio 4) she actually started talking about "primary caregiver" instead of mother. I agree with you entirely, and many other psychologists have had a good go at disproving this very 1960s theory that only the mother can be a good parent. There is an article on the Guardian if you feel like some light reading!

The point I would like to pick up form this debate (still going strong on many a website!) is that we are getting quite a lot of evidence from our users that some courts seem to be applying a principle of 'equally shared residency', which basically means that the non-resident parent has a right to have the child overnight if the judge says so. Even if we leave aside the psychology, I am not sure that anybody should have a 'right' over the child's life. A child is not a possession to be shared, and I would like to raise awareness of the fact that the courts are still under guidance to do what is in the best interest of the child, not to keep non primary caregivers happy by forcing so much misery on children who have already gone through a tough time. 

But there seem to be a swing towards the assumption that equal residency is the best, and that is not always the case, especially for many family who have experienced various levels of abuse. 

Posted on: June 25, 2014 - 6:50pm